【高端访谈】西瓦格·达马·内加拉：中国和印尼可考虑对接“一带一路”和“全球海洋支点”

备受瞩目的第二届“一带一路”国际合作高峰论坛将于本周四开幕，应中国国家主席习近平邀请，将有近40位国家与国际组织领导人齐聚北京，出席论坛。此外，法国、德国、英国、西班牙、日本、韩国以及欧盟也将派出领导人委托的高级代表与会。中国将与各方进一步凝聚共识，明确“一带一路”倡议未来方向。

China Focus以“一带一路”为主题，推出一系列海外知名人物高端访谈，今天推出对新加坡东南亚研究所资深研究员、印尼项目共同协调员西瓦格·达马·内加拉博士的专访。

At the invitation of Chinese President Xi Jinping, nearly 40 leaders of countries and international organizations will gather in Beijing to attend the high-profile second Belt and Road Forum for International Cooperation on Thursday. In addition, France, Germany, the United Kingdom, Spain, Japan, the Republic of Korea and the European Union will also send senior representatives entrusted by their leaders. The forum offers an opportunity to consider, deliberate and determine the future of the initiative.

With the theme of Belt and Road construction, China Focus has launched a series of high-profile overseas interviews. Today we have an exclusive interview with Dr. Siwage Dharma Negara, Senior Fellow, Institute of Southeast Asian Studies and co-coordinator of the Indonesian project.

访谈对象：西瓦格·达马·内加拉博士，新加坡东南亚研究所资深研究员、印尼项目共同协调员

访谈人员：薛力，中国社会科学院世界经济与政治研究所研究员

Interviewee: Dr. Siwage Dharma Negara, Senior Fellow, Institute of Southeast Asian Studies and co-coordinator of the Indonesian project.

Interviewer: Xue Li, Senior Fellow, Institute of World Economics and Politics, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

China Focus: 在您看来，中国提出“一带一路”倡议的主要原因是什么？China Focus: In your opinion, what's the main reason for China to put forward the Belt and Road Initiative?

内加拉博士: 对中国而言，“一带一路”倡议提供了一个推动国家和地区之间开展合作的平台。我最初认为该倡议只是限于经济方面。但在我对这项倡议进行更深入地了解之后，我发现，“一带一路”不仅将为全球经济增长提供新动能，还将推动全球化及时调整。中国也因而提升了其全球影响力，在全球竞争中占据了优势地位。

Dr. Negara: Regarding China, the Belt and Road Initiative provides a platform for promoting cooperation among countries and regions. I originally thought that the initiative was limited to economic aspects. However, after gaining a deeper understanding about this initiative, I found that the Belt and Road will not only bring new momentum for global economic growth, but also promote the adjustment of globalization in time. Because of that China has increased its global influence and can predominate global competition.

▲ 2017年7月11日，工人正在中国汽车制造商五菱汽车位于印尼西卡朗的工厂内工作。（图/新华社）

Employees work at a factory of China's automaker Wuling Motors in Cikarang, Indonesia, on July 11, 2017. (Photo/Xinhua)

China Focus: 您如何评价“一带一路”倡议？China Focus: How do you evaluate the Belt and Road Initiative?

内加拉博士: 我认为，“一带一路”倡议为许多共建国家的贸易、投资、基础设施发展以及人文交流提供了合作的机会。

Dr. Negara: I think that the Belt and Road Initiative has provided opportunities for trade, investment, infrastructure and human exchange among the participating countries.

根据实地调查，我的体会是，中国公司在印尼建设任何一个“一带一路”项目都十分不易。就高铁项目而言，如果土地征用无法100%完成，贷款协议就很难达成，从而项目就很难继续推进。

According to my field investigation, I find that it's really hard for Chinese companies to build any Belt and Road project in Indonesia. In terms of high-speed railway projects, if the land expropriation is not 100% completed, it will be hard to sign the loan agreement, significantly impeding project progression.

印尼政府不能强迫民众免费交出土地。目前征地仅完成60%，剩余40%需要提升价格，因此项目的成本上升了许多。与日本相比，中国提供的条件更优惠，尽管现在价格上调了。最初中国提供的报价是55亿美元，现在已经上升到60亿美元，增加了5亿美元。

The Indonesian government cannot force the local people to hand over their land without compensation. So far, the land expropriation is 60% complete, and the other 40% shall cost more, leading to an increase of project cost. Compared to Japan, China provides a more preferential cooperation condition, though the price is higher now. At the outset, China's offer was $5.5 billion dollars, now the figure is rising to $6 billion dollars – an increase of half a billion dollars.

▲ 这是2018年5月3日拍摄的中国中铁雅加达-万隆高铁项目瓦利尼隧道施工现场。（图/ 新华社）

Photo shows the construction site of the Waliani tunnel of China Railway Jakarta-Bandung high-speed rail project on May 3, 2018. (Photo/Xinhua)

我去参观过位于爪哇岛西部城市万隆的高铁项目，这条高铁连接雅加达和万隆，其间有四个主要火车站即雅加达、加拉万、瓦利尼和德卡鲁尔。我当时去的瓦利尼站正在建设中。高铁沿线会穿过许多种植园与山区，这需要修建隧道，而修建隧道非常昂贵。后来，由于征地问题，这项工程延迟了两年多，原计划2019年竣工，但现在我认为可能会在2021年建成。

I've been to the site of high-speed railway projects located in Bandung, a city of western Java Island. The high-speed railway connects Jakarta and Bandung, covering four main train stations, namely Jakarta, Karawang, Walini and Tegal Luar. Walini station was under construction during my visit. The high-speed railway passes many plantations and mountains, which requires the costly construction of tunnels. This project has been postponed for over two years because of land expropriation issues. The planned time of completion is in 2019, now I think they may finish it in 2021.

China Focus: 您觉得“一带一路”倡议提出后，中国与印尼的关系发生了哪些变化？China Focus: In your opinion, how have China-Indonesia relations changed after the proposal of the Belt and Road Initiative?

内加拉博士: 我们能看到双边关系有所提升，尤其是2013年后，也就是“一带一路”倡议提出的第一年。2013年10月2日，印尼前总统苏西诺与中国国家主席习近平共同决定把中印尼关系提升为全面战略伙伴关系。此后中国大量投资印尼，尤其是在电力、矿产等能源领域。良好的政治关系会进一步促进两国经济合作与发展。

Dr. Negara: We can see that the bilateral relations have upgraded especially after 2013, the beginning year of the Belt and Road Initiative. On October 2, 2013, former Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and Chinese President Xi Jinping jointly decided to upgrade the China-Indonesia relationship to a comprehensive strategic partnership. Close political ties can promote bilateral economic cooperation and development, ergo China has invested a huge amount of money in Indonesia, especially in energy fields such as electricity and minerals.

当前印尼政府可能不知道如何利用“一带一路”带来的优势，虽然政府意识到这是个机遇，但可能不完全清楚如何把机遇转变为实际获益。

Currently, the Indonesian government may not know how to take advantage of the Belt and Road Initiative. Although the government has realized that this initiative is an opportunity for the country, transforming this opportunity into practical interests may not be entirely clear.

▲ 2016年1月21日，在印尼西爪哇省瓦利尼，印尼总统佐科（中）在雅万高铁开工仪式上观看高铁列车模型。（图/新华社）

Indonesian President Joko Widod (C) looks at a model of a high-speed train during the opening ceremony of the Jakarta-Bandung high-speed rail project in Walid, west Java province, Indonesia on Jan 21, 2016. (Photo/Xinhua)

China Focus: 您觉得“一带一路”倡议提出后，中国的国家形象有什么变化？China Focus: Do you think China's national image has changed after the proposal of the Belt and Road Initiative?

内加拉博士: 总体而言，公众对华看法分歧很大。尽管佐科总统努力接近中国，但其他政府部门尤其是反对派不希望看到印尼与中国过于接近。

Dr. Negara: In general, public opinion towards China varies greatly. Although Indonesian President Joko is attempting to bridge a closer relationship with China, other departments in Indonesian government, especially politicians representing opposite parties don't want to get too close to China.

印尼是一个民主国家，伊斯兰人口庞大，许多民众排斥无神论，加上对冷战时期的印尼共产党活动的历史记忆，因此（许多印尼民众）担忧，如果引入中国的劳工制度和技术，就会被中国的意识形态影响，改变伊斯兰信仰。印尼政府现在正教育民众，让民众意识到中国正在和平崛起，并且是世界上主要经济大国，印尼如果与中国保持经济合作会受益很多。印尼政府试图改变民众对共产主义的陈旧观念。

As Indonesia is a democratic state with a large Muslim population, many Indonesians abhor atheism. There are memories of the Indonesian Communist Party during the Cold War and many Indonesians fear that if they introduce China's labor rules and technologies, they will somehow be affected by Chinese ideology, and their Islamic religion may be impacted. Now, the Indonesian government is educating its people to help them realize that China is rising peacefully and has become one of the major economic powers in the world. Indonesia will benefit a lot if it maintains its economic cooperation with China. China is assisting the Indonesian government in trying to change the outdated concepts its people have about communism.

我是华人，我的父亲和祖父都热爱中国，生活上遵守中国的习俗。他们认为中国因中国政府的领导而更为强大。

I'm an overseas Chinese. Both my father and grandfather love China and they comply with Chinese customs in their daily lives. They think that China has become stronger thanks to the leadership of the Chinese government.

▲ 位于雅加达最北端的丹戎不碌港是印度尼西亚最大的港口。

Located in the northernmost of Jakarta, Port of Tanjung Pelepas is Indonesia's largest port.

China Focus: 在您看来，在“一带一路”建设的可持续性方面有什么问题？该如何解决？China Focus: In your perspective, does the Belt and Road construction have problems in sustainability? How can these problems be settled?

内加拉博士: “一带一路”倡议包含的内容很广泛，不仅是修建道路和港口，还有种植、矿产、能源等。因此，我认为，即使道路建设不会一直持续下去，其他项目也可以持续更长时间。

Dr. Negara: The Belt and Road Initiative is extensive; it includes not only the establishment of roads and ports, but also cooperation in planting, minerals and energy sources. Therefore, I think that even cooperation in road construction can be limited, cooperation in other fields may last longer.

（薛：佐科总统提出要把印尼建设成为“全球海洋支点”。我想知道的是，“一带一路”与“全球海洋支点”有重合之处么？）

(Xue: President Joko put forward a Global Maritime Axis plan aiming to build Indonesia into a global maritime axis. Do the Belt and Road Initiative and the Global Maritime Axis plan overlap each other in any aspect?)

我的研究结论是：二者几乎没什么重叠。如果我们看“一带一路”全球地图，会发现它并不经过“全球海洋支点”路线。我的主要看法是：“一带一路”是外向发展的，而“支点”战略更多是针对印尼国内的发展倡议，旨在通过发展港口和航运以连接和发展东部地区。中国更关注国际社会发展，因为中国有能力这么做。而印尼目前还没有能力这么做，所以更关注提升国内地区连通性。中国和印尼可以考虑如何对接“一带一路”和“全球海洋支点”。

My research conclusion is that these two initiatives overlap each other in few aspects. When we have a look at the outline of the Belt and Road on the world map, we will find it doesn't pass the route of Global Maritime Axis plan. My main opinions are as follows: The BRI focuses on reaching out to other countries, while the Global Maritime Axis plan is more like an Indonesian domestic development initiative which aims at connecting and developing the east of the country through establishing ports and improving shipping capability. China focuses more on the development of international community and it is capable enough to do that. However, Indonesia is not capable enough to act like China in this aspect, it's better for the country to focus on upgrading national connectivity among regions. China and Indonesia can consider methods to align the Belt and Road initiative with the Global Maritime Axis plan.

编辑 / 蔡海若

Editor / Cai Hairuo

图片 / 网络

美编 / 高铭